On FetLife, there are many groups geared toward Christians and BDSM. I'm a member of some, including general Christian ones and specific Catholic ones. I enjoy talking to other Christians who are also interested in kink, but I am always sort of shocked and saddened by how many Christians are actually... well, not followers of Christ.
I don't for a minute think I'm capable of judging what makes another person Christian or not. When it all comes down to it, only God can know our hearts and souls. He will judge each person and His judgment will be completely just.
Still, Jesus was very, very clear that He is the only way to God. I don't think Jesus said this because He was intolerant, or egotistical, or that He meant He's the only way to God for Christians, but for Muslims and Hindus and Jews and agnostics there's another way and that's okay. No, the man said He was the only way. When God Himself takes the trouble to come down to earth and tell us who He is and what the way to Him is, I'm inclined to believe Him. Maybe it's not P.C. or fuzzy, feel-good religion with an emphasis on "all religions lead to God," but I believe it's the truth.
Allow me to share with you an exchange of messages on this topic. The FetLife member in question is the leader of a Catholic + BDSM group. I admire him for his tolerance of others' views in his group (even mine) and for his respect of other religions. Still, I can't agree with his views on God. Here is our discussion:
Is Jesus the only way to God?
Him:
NO....
The way to God is to seek God. Jesus is one of our earthly guides to God.
Go to YouTube, type in Islamic Call to Prayer...Listen to a few of them....
You may understand that Islam is also the way to God.
Me:
I do understand that many religions are attempting to search for God and of course have some valid ways of reaching Him.
However, when God comes down to earth and clearly says, "I am the Way, the Truth, and the Life; no one comes to the Father except through Me," I'm inclined to believe Him. He wouldn't have gone to all that trouble of coming to earth, suffering, dying, and rising (quite a drastic measure!) if it weren't completely necessary and the ONLY way to God. Otherwise Jesus' sacrifice wouldn't have been necessary, if there are other ways to God, all equally valid.
Isn't it possible to respect those religions, enjoy their sacred texts and music, but still know that there is only ONE way to God, the mediator Jesus Christ?
Him:
Um, no offense...but God comes down to earth? And you believe that? The early Christians did NOT think Jesus was God and yet they still followed him...
Early Christian views tended to see Jesus as a unique agent of God.
Most Christians identified Jesus as divine from a very early period, although holding a variety of competing views as to what exactly this implied.
(Early Christians) Adoptionists, such as the Ebionites, considered Jesus as at first an ordinary man, born to Joseph and Mary, who later became the Son of God at his baptism, his transfiguration, or his resurrection.
But it was not until some 300 years after Jesus died that the Council of Nicaea in 325 he was identified as God in the fullest sense, literally 'of the same substance, essence or being', hence in the further wording of the Creed.
Let's not forget that the Catholic church is a great propaganda agent for telling Christians what to believe...
You said, "Isn't it possible to respect those religions, enjoy their sacred texts and music, but still know that there is only ONE way to God, the mediator Jesus Christ?" NO.
I gave you my opinion. My opinion may or may not be correct. I believe it is correct.
The Irish playwright George Bernard Shaw once said, "There is only one religion,though there are a hundred versions of it."
Is it possible that Buddhism,Christianity, Hinduism, Islam, Judaism, etc. represent differing, yet valid, paths to the same destination?
First, it is intolerant and ethnocentric to assert that one religion is the true religion and others, which disagree, are false. This type of intolerance, it is pointed out, has caused much bloodshed.
Second, the contrasting claims of different religions do not prove that one religion is true and others are false. Instead it suggests that no religion possesses the entire truth, but only bits and pieces of it.
Finally, all religions share a common ethical core. Some formulation of the Golden Rule, for example, is found in Judaism, Hinduism, Jainism, Christianity, Taoism, Islam, and Buddhism. In addition, each of these traditions produces a similar ethical/moral transformation in the lives of its followers.
Moreover, it would be difficult to prove that one religious tradition is more effective than others in transforming the lives of its followers.
Me:
It may be intolerant, but I'm not intolerant from some selfish need to be right, or because I want to "win" a theological argument. I believe that because I honestly want everyone to come to faith in Jesus and have eternal life. It has nothing to do with me.
Also, I don't consider myself intolerant. I have a minor in religion, love to travel to countries with Muslim majorities, and happily attend other churches, denominations, and religions. I like to learn about them. I recently went to the Open House at a mosque here. "Intolerant" to me means the people who hate other religions and are rude to their adherents. I'm tolerant... I have Muslim and atheist friends, am open to attending their services, and read other sacred texts. I believe those people should have the right to practice their own religion. To me, that's tolerant.
I do believe all religions are representing different paths to the same goal. However, I don't believe all of them achieve that goal. That's the difference.
Yes, I believe God came down to earth. Early Christians were unclear what exactly Jesus was, but soon several factions came about. Eventually, Paul and other leaders (after the times the NT was written) through the 300s started to define what and who Jesus was. Arians were a large group who thought he was divine, but not God; others thought he was divine AND God. Utimately, I trust God let the religion who was "right" win out. I trust He can use politics and writings and even opposing factions to point us to the Truth, even if He doesn't do it immediately. And many other religions have incarnations of gods coming to earth, so it's not a new idea.
I'm making NO claims whatsoever that one religion is more effective in transforming lives. If you are looking at religion as a way to "transform lives" or be a better person, I agree with you that any religion could be equally valid and it's a matter of personal preference. However, I don't think religion is a way to transform lives, but a way to worship God and come to know the path to eternal life. There are many ways to transform lives and change people, but only one path to God---Jesus. The other paths head toward God, and attempt to reach it, but God Himself said that only through Jesus can we find eternal life. I'm inclined to believe Him.
Maybe George Bernard Shaw did say that. But Jesus Himself said that He was the only way to God.
I don't consider Jesus intolerant. In fact, He's my example of the most loving, forgiving, tolerant man alive. But He did say He was the only way to God. He didn't punish those who didn't follow Him; He just stated the truth. I try to follow that. I don't discriminate or hound other religions. But I care about them enough that I want them to know that, while talk of "everyone is right" and "all religions are valid" may be popular and P.C., it's not the truth. The God of the Hebrews was not P.C. Jesus was not P.C. They both make the claim that there is only ONE God, and this is how He wants to be worshipped, this is who He is, and these are His commands. I'm simply inclined to believe Him over myself or other humans. Who are we mortals to tell God what we think or want Him to be? He told us, and that is that. (For me.)
I'm sorry you don't agree with me. I do understand your point and actually used to believe it, until I read the Bible and had to admit I was wrong and God was right. It was hard for me to swallow my pride, I'll admit. Sometimes it's still hard.
I'd rather be a loving, tolerant, yet steadfast Christian who is right with Christ, than a P.C., "all roads lead to God" feel-good religion that isn't true and ends up leading myself and others to hell. And if I follow myself or other human leaders, instead of the God of the Bible, I'm afraid that's what I'll do.
So yes, I strongly believe we should respect and tolerate all religions. I believe they all have value and they all have bits of truth. But I believe only one Man, who was also God, is the way to heaven.
5 comments:
I completely agree with you - and I think your sentence about all religions having the same goal, but not all achieving it is especially insightful.
The other thing I see with Christian discussions on Fet is the "how can I twist the Bible or Christianity so that I can do whatever I want..." Those conversations get tough fast...
I believe I know the person you're referring to and that one has undergone quite a few "conversions." The first stance I saw was the claim to be an unbeliever and the reason for being in Christian groups was to "have a little fun."
We do not have to judge a person's soul in order to judge their doctrine. And if they claim to be Christians, we must judge their doctrine.
"What business is it of mine to judge those outside the church? Are you not to judge those inside? God will judge those outside." 1 Cor. 5
Ok, I'm gonna be honest, I didn't read everything that's written there (it's 3am and I intended to be asleep long since), but this is something which I have struggled with myself, because as you said God went to a LOT of trouble (from our point of view) to fulfill the old law through Christ's death and subsequent resurrection.
Now the reason that causes me issues is this, God clearly WANTS to have a relationship with us, he has gone out of his way to make that possible, so why would he not allow people to come to him in some other way than through Christanity? Christ said that it was through HIMSELF that people come to the Father, not through Christanity, this has led me to the conclusion that being a Christian is not a prerequisite for getting into Heaven.
This is somewhat reinforced (in my mind) by the fact that Jesus appeared to Paul in spiritual form, if he did that for Paul then clearly it is possible that he could do the same for others.
So, to an extent both of you were right, you because if is the relationship with Christ that is key and him because being a Christian is not.
Although that sparks the question of what is a Christian? Well a follower of Christ, so therefor surely anyone who becomes a follower of Christ (in whatever way it takes place) also becomes a Christian by default right?
God doesn't make our lives easy does he? lol
@Wulfen,
I guess I define a Christian as a "follower of Christ." Therefore I think it would be entirely possible for a Jewish or Islamic adherent to keep the cultural aspects of their religion, but believe the Bible as the truth and know that their salvation comes from Jesus.
You have written some good and truthful words here. While i agree with you on what is and what is not a sin, i struggle with this. Every time i think of fetlife, it keeps crossing my mind and heart about the naked pictures, that nonchalant pornography every time i click onto the page. Does it ever bother you?
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